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What is the tolerance for tile grout joints that are butted together?
QUESTION
What is the acceptable tolerance for a zero joint in stone; if we have tolerance for this type of joint?ANSWER
ANSWER - The joint between two adjacent tiles is referred to as the grout joint, which is what I think you are referring to. I am also assuming that when you say zero joint you been the tiles are butted up to each other and there is no space for grout.Industry standards do not recommend butting tiles together whether they are a stone tile or a ceramic tile. The Marble Institute of America recommends at least a 1/8" wide grout joint, but states it should never be any less than 1/16" wide. They also state that the tolerance or variation in grout joint width should not be more than +/- 25% of the width of the joint.
Butting tiles together can lead to various problems such as a chattered edge. A chattered edge is when the edge of the butted stone chips do to the compression stress it is subjected to when the stone naturally expands due to moisture, temperature or it moves from structural movement. If there are not adequate movement joints within the tile work it can lead to tile debonding under certain circumstances.
Butting the tiles together doesn't allow for adjustments during the installation to compensate for stone size variations, warpage in the stone, and tile lippage.
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A few of the porcelain tiles on our bathroom shower wall are so close that you can’t even fit your fingernail in between. The rest have a 1/8 grout joint. There are also many that are higher than others.. and this is all AFTER the builder had the tile contractors fix a bad install.
Should I be concerned about water getting behind the tiles that are touching as there is no grout in these spaces?
Donna, as the topic comment states, tiles should not be butted together. It is recommended to have at least a minimum grout joint width of 1/8 inch, but never less than 1/16 inch wide. And the grout joint width variation tolerance should not be more than +/- 25%.
In your case, as you described it, the grout joint width variation is considered excessive.
There are rectified porcelain tiles that are more consistent in size tolerances, where they recommend 1/16 inch wide grout joints.
Tile lippage, which is were one edge of a tile is higher or lower than the adjacent tile edge, is normal to a degree, but there are limitations. Normally allowable lippage for a rectified porcelain tile with a grout joint that is 1/8 inch wide or less, with inherent warpage, is about 1/16 inches.
The wider the grout joint the more potential tile lippage is reduced.
Cementitious grout is not waterproof, so water does migrate behind the tiles unless epoxy grout was used. If the shower was properly waterproofed and installed then it should not cause a problem.
There is much variation in grout joints 0″-5/16″ the 0 is at interior shower corners where some tiles are touching. Average joint is 1/4″ Lippage is about 1/16″ to 1/8″ on the worst of them. It is a Wedi system and looked flat and true before they started.
What can be done with this?
They also troweled-on some drywall mud to try level out the Wedi boards to the walls at the edges of the Wedi system and then thin-set tile on top of the drywall mud.
As stated above grout joint widths should not vary in width more than +/- 25% of the intended width. Tiles should never be butted up to each other and grout joints should never be less than 1/16″ wide.
I can see that the wall was out of square so that is why the tile does not line up with the outside vertical edge of the shower wall. The Wedi board should have been shimmed to make it plumb and square.
Dry wall mud is moisture sensitive and it should not have been used over the Wedi board. Limitedly thin-set mortar can be used to adjust the backer board surface for slight differences.
Perhaps some tiles can be removed and re-installed without redoing the entire shower, but can’t tell for sure.
I have abutted tiles on a countertop (which I hadn’t really noticed was a problem until I went to try and re-grout the counter). Traditional re-grouting is not possible, as no tool can fit between many of the tiles. I’m wondering if there might be some alternative to re-grouting, short of re-tiling the whole counter. I was thinking a liquid like caulk could be squeegeed in, but I don’t think it would hold up. Any other products that can go in as a liquid (not a slurry, like grout) to more or less do the job? Plaster of Paris, with a sealant after it sets? The grout less abutments are black and simply can’t be cleaned, they need to be filled.
I would use a utility knife to remove any material in what joint there is. Clean it with a brush and detergent in water. Rinse with clean water. Let it dry. Then use an ASTM C920 sealant that is a silicone to force the sealant into the joint and tooling it off slightly concave to the tile surface. Put painter’s tape on either side of the joint before applying the sealant. After applying the sealant pull the tape right away. If you leave it too long it will put the sealant out of the joint. If you don’t use painters tape it is difficult to clean up.
I have a bathroom install going on now with the corner tiles butting. No grout yet. Can my installer take the tiles off without causing any problems to the other tiles?
Corner tiles should not be butted together. There should be a gap and it should be filled with an ASTM C920 sealant (caulking). The installer might be able to take a dry cutting diamond blade on a grinder to open up the joint. Or if necessary he can remove the tiles and re-install them.
Just had tile installed around a tub with a decorative border about 4 feet high and 2 shelves; first shelf at 2 feet second shelf about 12 inches higher; the tile around one of the shelves was not correctly and the grout line is very thick also the decorative border was butted against the tile with no grout and at the top a 1/2 inch strip of tile against the ceiling. Should I have this redone
It is hard to determine if your installation is consistent with industry standards and the standard of care for professional tile installers without seeing it in person and taking quantitative measurements.
The standards say that the grout joints should be straight and true, which can only be determined subjectively. I have introduce into the standards that like sealants (caulking) the grout joints should be within +/- 25% of the specified grout width.
Good installers will layout their work in advance to setting the tile to determine if there will be too small of a cut tile or too big or too small of a grout joint. They then sometimes can adjust the width of their grout joint to avoid these odd conditions.
The standards say that you should not have any cut tile less than 1/2 the width of the tile, but sometimes that isn’t reasonable and you need to have a smaller cut depending on the layout and the trade-offs.
Ah, so this is the level of tolerance that these tile grout joints have. It’s good to know about this now. I will make use of this information in one of my new papers now.
Hello, i bought 4″x12″ subway tiles that have little spaced out ridges on all four sides of the edges that i assumed was so that they could be butt up against each other? i installed then staggered for my backsplash and used non sanded grout over brand new drywall. will this be a problem later?
Those protrusions on the edges of the tile are called “lugs.” They allow the tile to be self-spacing by butting them together that leaves a pre-determined grout joint width.
You can install tile over drywall in a interior dry applications.
Non-sanded grout should only be used in grout joints that are 1/8″ wide or less. Sanded grout is recommended for grout joints that are 1/8″ or wider to help prevent shrinkage cracking in the grout joints.
I want to ask a question, is it recommended to Install tile ( 60x120cm) in brick patterns with but joints?
It is never recommended to install tiles with butt joints. You need to have at least 1/16″ wide joints. If the tiles are butt together then when they expand from moisture or temperature increase they can cause damage.
If your tile is a traditional thick tile of about 5/16″ thick then the minimum recommended grout joint width in a 50% staggered tile installation is 3/16″ width for a calibrated tile and 1/8″ wide for a rectified tile. This is because of the warpage that these tiles have at the center of the tile and at the corners of the tile.
If you have a gauged porcelain tile that is 1/4″ thick or thinner, then the minimum grout joint width for a 50% staggered tile installation is 1/8″ width.
Hello I am currently working on a house for a friend and she has asked me to do a tile shower with 4×2 in.subway tile. So I had her get me 3/16 in. Spacers. Well her tile guy came back to do the job I politely let him have it while I was working in basement two days later I noticed the spacers I got were not being used. I went to look at shower he’s half way up with tiles butted together tight!. Will this be a problem? Thanks Bruce b.
Tiles are never to be butted together per industry standards. The potential problem is if the tile expands for heat or moisture or from dynamic movements, then they can chip along the edge.
Plus tiles are never perfect in their dimensions so grout joints help compensate for that so that the tile will layout consistently.
Hi!
Thank you for your insights.
My contractor have left virtually no gap in between my 60cm x 60cm tile. Installation work is still ongoing but to those tiles that had already been installed, is there a way to open up the joints even 1/16″ besides removing and reinstalling tiles?
Can they like grind it to create a gap?
Other than taking a 4-1/2″ dry diamond blade and cutting the joints that is the only way to open the joint. Industry standards recommend at least a 1/8″ wide grout joint, but says never less than 1/16″ wide. It is never recommended to butt tiles together as they can expand under certain conditions that would put them into stress that could lead to a problem depending on the other installation conditions.
If I want to use XL porcelain tile (60″W x 10′ H) on walls and use epoxy for a seamless look, is it best to butt the tiles together or use clips to prevent lippage?
It is never recommended to butt any type of tile together as it can lead to problems.
For gauged porcelain tiles/slabs the ANSI A108.19 standards require that a lippage control system is used to limit lippage. The standard also says that the minimum grout joint width should be at least three times the actual variation of facial dimensions of the tile supplied. For example if the total variation of 1/16″ requires a minimum grout joint width of 23/16″.
You can consider using an ASTM C920 Traffic Grade Sealant in the grout joints that will then help you meet the standards for installing movement joints. The sealant joint needs to be tooled to a slight concave finish so foot soles do not come into contact with it.
I’m curious. Why is it important to prevent foot soles from coming in contact with ASTM C920 Traffic grade Sealant installed between tiles?
Foot traffic in direct contact with a traffic grade sealant will tend to stain the sealant. It gets dirty and normally can’t be cleaned. The traffic Grade sealant is designed to take the wear. So that is why we always say to tool the joint to a slight concave finish.
I’m currently completing my backsplash which has two outside corners each at 135 degrees. I’m using the mitre method to join the tiles together at the corners, but per the guidance above leaving a gap at that joint.
Would you recommend that this corner joint be the same as my grout line (1/8)? Or is it okay for this gap to be smaller so it’s less noticeable and doesn’t break up the pattern as much?
it would be better to to go with a 1/8″ wide joint at the outside corner and to fill it with an ASTM C920 sealant e.g. silicone or polyurethane type.
It is best to make that mitered a quirk miter. That is where you start your miter about a 1/8″ below the surface of the tile. This makes the corner more stable and less likely to chip. It allows you to caulk that joint better with the sealant. And it gives it a more clean consistent look.
Flat stone mosaic tiles. The stones touch eachother often and also have large gaps. Do I need to cut a 1/16″ grout joint where the stones are currently touching? Touching from factory. Planning on using tec power grout.
Technically tiles should not be touching because as the stones are subjected to moisture and temperature they expand and if they are constrained in certain cases it can cause tiles to chip or tent.
There are some mosaics that are put on sheets in an irregular way and if there isn’t a lot of tiles touching it probably won’t make a difference. But you never want all or most of the tiles touching.